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Vegan People
Respecting All Animals
Poll (Please share what you think) 
2nd-Apr-2007 03:11 pm
There are a lot of people in anti-PETA, anti-VEG, and anti-AR groups etc...
Who will tend to poke fun at AR folks and groups like PETA for euthanizing animals.

While I personally am not in agreement with much of PETA's image and "tactics" so to speak, the fact that they euthanize animals sometimes is not one of them... Just as I'm not wholly against county and city run shelters having to euthanize animals as well.
The way I see it is the pet overpopulation problem is mankind's fault. We wouldn't even have all these breeds of "pet" animals if humans hadn't kept breeding them to get them to exist. Now the other problems that exist because of it are puppy mills, not enough people spaying or neutering their pets, and people insisting on buying pure-bred animals from breeders instead of adopting animals from shelters, or only adopting pure-breds from the rescue groups that exist which take them from bad homes and need to find them good homes.
Many state or county run shelters are often under equipped, under-sized, and/or understaffed to deal with the animal population issues in their area in a very organized or humane way... If they have a high rate of animals coming in that is hard for them to deal with then they have a high euthanization rate as well. But there is also not ever enough funds to form enough non-profit, no-kill shelters for every animal in need of a good home either, despite many organizations and groups best intentions and efforts.
The way I see it is, so long as people neglect to spay/neuter their animals... and so long as there are still people who will not adopt their animals but instead insist on going through pet-stores and breeders, ...there are always going to be a huge number of "unwanted" pets. There are just not feasibly enough GOOD homes in this world for every animal out there right now that gets turned over to a shelter, (be it a kill or no-kill facility)... and I think that because of that, euthanization must exist, and in many cases it is doing the animal more of favor than letting them languish in overcrowded cages and kennels.

Anyway, I bring the topic up because I thought I would poll all of you fellow vegan and vegetarian folks on here to ask what you think.

Do you think...

A. - Euthanization of animals is ever acceptable, and/or even necessary?

B. - All shelters that euthanize should be banned and/or replaced with no-kill facilities?

C. - Euthanization is bad/wrong unless only in THE MOST dire of cases when an animal is obviously so sick, injured or tempermentally dangerous in such a way that it is "unadoptable"?


D. - Euthanization of animals is wrong, period, regardless of the circumstance or situation?

3rd-Apr-2007 02:50 pm (UTC)
Simcha makes a good point.
I'm originally from "the south" as well... And just moving from a small town in the rural south east, to where I am now in Missouri, there is a noticable difference in managing companion animals, so to speak. Namely people in this area who have pets are a lot more prone to keep them constrained (i.e. they're not just running around loose everywhere) and/or get them neutered. In rural areas in places like North Carolina for one, that does not happen as much. Animals go running around loose all over the place getting hit by cars, attacked by other animals, killing other animals, getting poisoned and shot by people who get pissed off about animals running around loose, and of course breeding and breeding is a common thing. And I've seen some pretty horrid and bad and awful things happen on account of it with the animals getting diseases, and sickly, and starving or their overpopulation causing problems for local wildlife, etc...
And my parents are originally from Michigan and they moved south a couple years before I was born and even they quickly noticed a huge difference between how "pet"- type animals were commonly dealt with down there as opposed to how it tended to be where they were from.
I'm sure a lot of it has to do with lack of proper education to the people in the areas, and on top of that more small and rural towns are going to be less equipped to have large shelter facilities, and proper funding for those facilities etc...
Perhaps if one witnesses some of the kinds of things that I and others have witnessed in regards to strays and population issues it is what makes HUMANE euthanization an understandable, and even in some cases - a desirable option.

That is a good point that you mentioned "In many cases euthanizing the more visible members of a larger population (which is what Peta and Animal Control have done in the past) merely creates an imbalance in the population that spurs more breeding." I've heard this same issue pointed out in regards to hunting and deer populations. And how hunters claim that they are helping "control" the populations from causing over population but inf act the opposite is happening in many areas and "the deer situation is getting worse" so to speak, because, like you said, it creates such a severe and sudden imbalance to which is responded to by more breeding.

"I also have begun to feel that it is not the place of the animal rights movement to provide quiet, guilt-free, unseen killing of companion animals. This kind of animal control environment has allowed a lot of the dog and cat-loving public to keep buying and breeding companion animals without really seeing or owning the consequences." --- that's a good point too.

And Turil, I've read through all of the comments on here and no one specifically said anything about killing people because we don't want to take care of them. You read too much into something I think and built your own context around it. Especially if where you formed that idea was just from someone mentioning how they feel euthanasia for humans should be legal as well --- I think you're misunderstanding what they were likely meaning by 'euthanasia of humans' ... I'm sure they didn't mean anything like governmentally controlled population exterminations and murders and such. No, I'm sure they were referring to the much heated debate of the medical establishment, of the right to "Assisted suicide"-as it is sometimes called (and as someone else already explained in their reply) --- in which case it is the patient's choice to be given a painless injection that just lets them pass from life and from their suffering.
And granted, animals cannot speak our language to say "yes, please put me out of my misery" at the same time if we're willing to understand that animals can suffer as we know suffering to be (Hence why a lot of us our vegan, right?), then there are PLENTY of cases where it is obvious to see an animal is suffering and it would be the kinder thing to give it a lethal injection than to let it go on suffering.
4th-Apr-2007 12:42 pm (UTC)
I consider all Earthlings people, not just homo sapiens. I had to admit that a long time ago after reading an animal rights book (I can't rememebr the title, sorry). I had to admit that there is no intelligent or ethical reason to discriminate against someone else because they are of a different species than I am.

My test for ethical behavior is if I would want it to happen to my mother. If I wouldn't want her killed for the reasons that people give for euthanasia, then I wouldn't want it for anyone else. And so far the only reason that has stood up to my test is if the individual specifically asks for it and seems to be wanting to die for rational and healthy reasons. (Unlike when my husband wanted to commit suicide). My mom has a DNR order that she know's I'll respect if the time ever comes that she needs to be put on permamnant life support.

As for times when it is "obvious" that someone wants to die, I would suggest that your perceptions may not be theirs. In my experience, people will die when they have had enough living. Life is cool like that, if you don't get in it's way.

But I understand that others feel differently. And if you truly feel that killing someone else is the best thing to do then there isn't a lot I can do to stop you, because you need to do what you feel is right.
4th-Apr-2007 03:50 pm (UTC)
"As for times when it is "obvious" that someone wants to die, I would suggest that your perceptions may not be theirs. In my experience, people will die when they have had enough living. Life is cool like that, if you don't get in it's way."

People don't just die when they have merely "had enough of living"... its not so simple as that. To say it as simply and causally as that is kind of insulting to those who've suffered through death. What about "people" (both human and non-human animals) who suffer sudden fatal accidents? It doesn't mean they were readily thinking "I think I want to die today", but they died just the same. What about "people" (both human and non-human animals) suffering from some sickness or injury that is surely going to kill them and they're just having to wait around for the inevitable to take over, but in horrible pain and agony in the process... Don't you think then it is more compassionate for them to be put out of their misery?
4th-Apr-2007 03:59 pm (UTC)
"People don't just die when they have merely "had enough of living"... its not so simple as that."

In my experience, it is just that simple. It's not necessarily a conscious choice, but I have indeed experienced people of all species dying naturally when they have no life left in them. I would not put my stepfather "to sleep" because he is in constant pain and suffering, simply because he himself believes that there is more to life than always being pain-free. I grant the same respect to all other beings. I'm not going to tell them when they should die, I'm going to let them have the right to make that choice for themselves. The will to live is indeed strong, until it isn't...
4th-Apr-2007 11:41 pm (UTC)
And I restate: "What about "people" (both human and non-human animals) who suffer sudden fatal accidents? It doesn't mean they were readily thinking "I think I want to die today", but they died just the same."
In which case it's not like they "had enough of living" as you said, but more that an untimely accident happened to dictate their life ending suddenly.

And on the second point, just because your step father would rather suffer pain until it kills him doesn't mean everyone would want that. For instance I just lost my grandmother to lung/liver/bone cancer, it was irreversible, it was going to kill her the question was just "when?"... she tried a bit of treatment to prolong her life but it made the pain even worse. She became bed ridden and in agony all the time crying things like "Why why?", getting delirious, begging for medication, begging to die. If "physician assisted suicide" were a legal procedure I know she would have chosen that early on rather than go through the "wasting" of the disease until death.
Anyway... I'm not saying creatures do not die simply on the basis of natural aging and life process and so forth, and because they're "ready" to die... of course that is the case with many creatures... But it is not the case with all individuals.
And I'm just saying I think that the option for a suffering creature to be put out of their misery (emphasis on the MISERY part there) should not be wholly ostracized.
5th-Apr-2007 01:21 am (UTC)
Ok, I think you might have misunderstood what I'm saying. I think the most moral thing to do is to let individuals decide for themselves when to die. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but as far as my philosophy goes it's the most moral thing to do, and any other option is, by default, less moral. And killing someone just because someone else thinks they should die (for whatever reason) is the least moral of all choices.

So, in my perspective, your grandmother would obviously have the option to die if she wants, since that's her choice.
4th-Apr-2007 12:32 am (UTC)
I guess I'd go with C, except for the tempermentally dangerous. I know there are sanctuaries for cats that are "unadoptable", but I don't know about dogs.....I'm sure there has to be...
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